Getting elbows back in front
Original Topic
Anthony225 — November 7, 2015
Ross, when you work to get the elbows back in front to point at the hips, how do I get my turn to sync with my body rotation? Do you think about feeling the upper inside of the front arm touch the outside of the front pec? Or do you focus on the feel of both elbows being back in front as you rotate?
I’m having a hard time understanding what it feels like so that I can recognize when I eventually do it correctly. I’ve practiced the Ross Move, but when I speed up my rotation, I can’t seem to get it right. I want to develop a swing thought, at least until I can make keeping the elbows in front a habit.
Discussion (13 Replies)
Reply 1
Ross — November 7, 2015
I’m not sure what you mean in your first question: “When you work to get the elbows back in front to point at the hips, how do I get my turn to sync with my body rotation?”
Your “turn” and “body rotation” are the same thing. The unwinding of the downswing brings the arms down and around to the left for a right-hander. They’re connected because of the way we wind up.
So, if you can “unwind” your body (turn) on the downswing without moving your arms, then your backswing is not right. Many golfers move their hips with their shoulders on the backswing and don’t create a “windup” from the top down. This might be what you’re experiencing. I’m guessing, since I have not seen a video.
I don’t feel anything touch on the downswing. My body has a sense of where my arms and club are, and the body’s job is to “unwind them down and around.” It is all done in one continuous motion. It’s kind of like using my body to throw something with both arms from right to left by turning.
When in doubt, shorten the backswing so the arms can be controlled. Watch the Straight Arm Drill, too. It can help teach you how to control your arms using your body. Forget about elbows for now, and lazily let the body move the arms from about 8:00 on the backswing, through impact, and around to the left in one motion.
Reply 2
Anthony225 — November 7, 2015
Sorry about the bad wording of my question, but you addressed what I meant. I believe it is a backswing issue in which I’m getting disconnected.
Reply 3
Ross — November 8, 2015
That’s really common. That is why I like to shorten the backswing to the point where you regain, or start making, “solid” contact—like a fallback safety net. You hit many short shots and gain confidence, then let the shoulders go a bit farther until you “lose it,” so to speak.
Then, many times, the culprit really stands out. The culprit might be arms lifting or moving across your chest, wrists hinging in various directions, or both elbows bending. Once you see what’s going on, you can work specifically on that. Either you can improve the issue, or you’ve gotten yourself past the point of a productive backswing. Everyone has different limitations.
Reply 4
Anthony225 — November 8, 2015
I think the issue may be that I was trying not to let my right (back) elbow bend. Even though I tried to squeeze my elbows together, I was actually becoming more and more disconnected as my backswing length increased because I was trying to limit my back elbow’s bend.
By squeezing my elbows together and focusing on my back elbow pointing more toward the ground as I allow it to bend, I believe I may be heading in the right direction. My shorter swings did not have this problem as much because my back elbow had not really reached that point. By restricting my elbow bend on longer backswings, my template felt farther from the front of my body, and I could not get it back in front on the downswing.
I was also focusing on getting the front elbow to “line up” with my front hip as I turned. When I watch your full-swing videos—a thousand times!—it now appears to me that your back elbow’s bend allows you to kind of “lay” your template back in front as your turn pulls it down and around.
The challenge is that when I allow the left arm to bend, it wants to bend outward, so I have to allow it to bend only downward while squeezing it close to the front elbow. This feels like a small flexibility issue.
I could only try this on my backyard golf mat, since we have been getting bombarded with rain for over a week in Baton Rouge. But I hope the elbow bend is my smoking gun when I eventually go to the range. Please let me know if I am off track in my thinking.
Reply 5
Ross — November 8, 2015
It sure sounds like it might be. Yes, the elbows do bend, but never at the same time until the end of the swing. This is the ideal scenario.
Your idea about pointing the elbows down to help prevent a “chicken wing” is good. Pointing the elbows at the hips also helps achieve that.
Reply 6
Anthony225 — November 13, 2015
After watching some video of my swing, I notice that I am still not getting my arms back down in front with my body rotation. It seems that my hip turn always gets a little ahead of my arms, and they never catch up.
I hit the ball decently on occasion this way, but I know it’s not correct. I’ve practiced the Ross Move drill, but I still can’t get it to work during even my easiest swings. I understand that the arms should be pulled down with the body rotation, but the pull still leaves my arms behind.
Reply 7
Ross — November 13, 2015
Not everything “lines up.” The lower body will always lead the shoulders and arms a little. This is the nature of unwinding—it is like a rubber band.
So, don’t fret if the arms are not exactly in front of the body. It is about the result, not the video. If you’re making solid contact, great.
Reply 8
Anthony225 — November 14, 2015
Okay. What I meant by “line up” was that, when I watch your swing videos, your arms (elbows) look perfectly in front of your hips before and at impact. I just can’t seem to get my arms to that position because my hips seem to be turned too much just before and right at impact.
I feel like I’m closer to “clearing the hips,” which is not what you intend. I think this robs me of power.
Reply 9
Ross — November 14, 2015
Send me the videos you’re looking at so I can see: one from the front and one from behind, looking down the target line.
Reply 10
davew — November 14, 2015
I feel inclined to comment because this is such a fundamental issue. If you follow the instruction “to the letter,” this issue will probably not arise, since the arms will come back roughly the same way they went up. By “up,” I mean up the plane—sorry, Ross—and they will come back down the plane.
One issue that complicates this is that, in most cases, the arms “lift” with respect to both the body and the plane. This means they have to descend in two ways on the way down: down the plane and back to the body. It is the latter that is prone to cause problems, as it can easily lead to a disconnection, and the body can “leave the arms behind.”
I know Ross is not a fan of raising the arms, and I do not do it significantly—old habits—but I have found that a way around it is to assist gravity a bit and apply a little force to bring the arms back to the body at the same time as the body brings them down the plane.
This has helped me a lot because the issue can lead to other problems in addition to leaving the arms behind. In my case, I was very susceptible to shanking the ball as a result of coming from the outside—sorry again, Ross. I can now be pretty confident of returning to the sweet spot on most occasions.
Work on mastering the Ross Move, and you will play some great and enjoyable golf.
Cheers,
Dave
Reply 11
Anthony225 — November 27, 2015
I think Davew’s statement helped:
“If you follow the instruction ‘to the letter,’ this issue will probably not arise, since the arms will come back roughly the same way they went up. By ‘up,’ I mean up the plane—sorry, Ross—and they will come back down the plane.
One issue that complicates this is that, in most cases, the arms ‘lift’ with respect to both the body and the plane. This means they have to descend in two ways on the way down: down the plane and back to the body. It is the latter that is prone to cause problems, as it can easily lead to a disconnection, and the body can ‘leave the arms behind.’”
I thought about this for a bit and tried the Ross Move drill again in the backyard. I think I may have closed the gap on my disconnection problem, at least with short swings so far.
That’s twice Davew has helped clear something up for me. Sometimes it’s good to have someone who has also struggled with a fundamental part of the swing “chip” in. Thanks!
Reply 12
DaveF — June 15, 2016
Hi Ross,
Regarding the Ross Move, assuming the backswing and everything else are done correctly, at what point in the downswing are the elbows fully back in front of your hips?
In order of how soon that occurs, is it:
a) “As soon as possible”?
b) At some point well before the ball, similar to the Gap Drill position at address?
c) Close to or at impact?
Lately, I’ve been creeping toward option a) and not getting good results.
Thanks!
Dave
Reply 13
Ross — June 15, 2016
First, your elbows will never be right in front of you (or your hips), as they are at setup, because the body is unwinding and rotating. So, the hips will be slightly turned when the elbows arrive. This happens very fast and is a “dynamic,” or “in-motion,” position.
Now, there is a moment when all body parts “sum” to move the ball—a kind of “maximum power” moment. You can easily practice this by setting up against an open doorjamb, as shown in the photo below. Then let your hips unwind a bit, as in the photo, and let your “rotation” press the club against the doorjamb. You should feel everything unwinding to push against the doorjamb equally.
You don’t have to unwind too hard—just enough to feel everything working together. There should be no leaning, weight shift, or pushing with the hands or arms. This is total unwinding into the jamb. That is what impact should feel like when done correctly, and you will see where your elbows end up to maximize impact.
By the way, I believe that if you practice this “impact position” against anything—a couch leg, a pole, a bench out on the range, or anything that will resist—and gently hold it for 15–20 seconds, your brain will start to “map” impact. You can then “recall it” and “get to that position” just by “visualizing it” right before you hit.
It is like being able to visualize impact because you’ve been practicing impact. Boy, if you send your brain that great visualization, it will get to it.
Remember, this is “dynamic.” Nothing stops there, happens there, or hits there. It’s just a moment when everything is moving the ball while you’re unwinding. I’ve seen many students improve just by holding the correct impact position, then getting back to that position during a real swing.
Watch “Setup vs. Impact” in the Swing Section for more information.